Bush Signs Energy Bill, Measure Includes Billions in Tax Breaks for Industry By Jim VandeHei and Justin Blum (Washington Post) Tuesday, August 9, 2005 ALBUQUERQUE, Aug. 8 — President Bush signed the first national energy legislation in more than a decade on Monday, hailing the measure as a smart way to make Americans more secure and less dependent on foreign oil. The new 1,724-page energy law, four years in the making, will provide $14.5 billion in tax breaks. The recipients will include producers of oil, natural gas, coal and nuclear power, as well as smaller incentives for consumers who use cleaner-burning fuels produced in this country. Analysts say it is unlikely most Americans will see a noticeable improvement in their energy costs in the short term. The bill exempts oil and gas industries from some clean-water laws, streamlines permits for oil wells and power lines on public lands, and helps the hydropower industry appeal environmental restrictions.

Response:

Filibuster in the Senate! by humphrey Thu Apr 27, 2006 at 09:42:56 AM PDT    Senator Ron Wyden (D-Oregon) is currently filibustering the emergency spending bill in the Senate. He is offering an ammendment that would eliminate royalty relief for oil companies when the price of oil is above $50 a barrel. He simply wants a vote on his ammendment. This vote would eliminate subsidies to the oil companies costing billions of dollars. Obviously the Republicans do not want this ammendment to come to a vote as it would hurt big oil. It would put the Senators in a difficult position. Oil companies are cheating Americans out of billions

Here it is folks…..this is why our sons and daughters are dying in a far off land.  Quite simply, so that we can have access to a fuel that will very likely run out in their own lifetimes, and maybe some of ours. I know that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing my president LIED to us again and again…in fact, he still has not come clean about the *real* reason for the war. Gee….what do you think would happen, if we spent the combined resources of the war, on perfecting an alternate and renewable fuel, instead of spilling blood over the last few drops of oil?  Hmmmmm????   And then, when the oil does run out, we’ve perfected the new technology, so we sell it to the world. Golly…..that’s pretty liberal thinking, eh? You idiots have no idea what is going on.  Most of you never will, either. I pity you. (P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own words.  I’m out of here….) Secret US plans for Iraq’s oil The Bush administration made plans for war and for Iraq’s oil before the 9/11 attacks, sparking a policy battle between neo-cons and Big Oil, BBC’s Newsnight has revealed. Two years ago today – when President George Bush announced US, British and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad – protesters claimed the US had a secret plan for Iraq’s oil once Saddam had been conquered. In fact there were two conflicting plans, setting off a hidden policy war between neo-conservatives at the Pentagon, on one side, versus a combination of "Big Oil" executives and US State Department "pragmatists". "Big Oil" appears to have won. The latest plan, obtained by Newsnight from the US State Department was, we learned, drafted with the help of American oil industry consultants. Insiders told Newsnight that planning began "within weeks" of Bush’s first taking office in 2001, long before the September 11th attack on the US. An Iraqi-born oil industry consultant, Falah Aljibury, says he took part in the secret meetings in California, Washington and the Middle East. He described a State Department plan for a forced coup d’etat. Mr Aljibury himself told Newsnight that he interviewed potential successors to Saddam Hussein on behalf of the Bush administration. Secret sell-off plan The industry-favoured plan was pushed aside by a secret plan, drafted just before the invasion in 2003, which called for the sell-off of all of Iraq’s oil fields. The new plan was crafted by neo-conservatives intent on using Iraq’s oil to destroy the Opec cartel through massive increases in production above Opec quotas. The sell-off was given the green light in a secret meeting in London headed by Ahmed Chalabi shortly after the US entered Baghdad, according to Robert Ebel. Mr Ebel, a former Energy and CIA oil analyst, now a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, told Newsnight he flew to the London meeting at the request of the State Department. Mr Aljibury, once Ronald Reagan’s "back-channel" to Saddam, claims that plans to sell off Iraq’s oil, pushed by the US-installed Governing Council in 2003, helped instigate the insurgency and attacks on US and British occupying forces. "Insurgents used this, saying, ‘Look, you’re losing your country, you’re losing your resources to a bunch of wealthy billionaires who want to take you over and make your life miserable,’" said Mr Aljibury from his home near San Francisco. "We saw an increase in the bombing of oil facilities, pipelines, built on the premise that privatisation is coming." Privatisation blocked by industry Philip Carroll, the former CEO of Shell Oil USA who took control of Iraq’s oil production for the US Government a month after the invasion, stalled the sell-off scheme. Mr Carroll told us he made it clear to Paul Bremer, the US occupation chief who arrived in Iraq in May 2003, that: "There was to be no privatisation of Iraqi oil resources or facilities while I was involved." Ariel Cohen, of the neo-conservative Heritage Foundation, told Newsnight that an opportunity had been missed to privatise Iraq’s oil fields. He advocated the plan as a means to help the US defeat Opec, and said America should have gone ahead with what he called a "no-brainer" decision. Mr Carroll hit back, telling Newsnight, "I would agree with that statement. To privatize would be a no-brainer. It would only be thought about by someone with no brain." New plans, obtained from the State Department by Newsnight and Harper’s Magazine under the US Freedom of Information Act, called for creation of a state-owned oil company favoured by the US oil industry. It was completed in January 2004 under the guidance of Amy Jaffe of the James Baker Institute in Texas. Formerly US Secretary of State, Baker is now an attorney representing Exxon-Mobil and the Saudi Arabian government. View segments of Iraq oil plans at www.GregPalast.com <http://www.gregpalast.com/opeconthemarch.html> Questioned by Newsnight, Ms Jaffe said the oil industry prefers state control of Iraq’s oil over a sell-off because it fears a repeat of Russia’s energy privatisation. In the wake of the collapse of the Soviet Union, US oil companies were barred from bidding for the reserves. Ms Jaffe says US oil companies are not warm to any plan that would undermine Opec and the current high oil price: "I’m not sure that if I’m the chair of an American company, and you put me on a lie detector test, I would say high oil prices are bad for me or my company." The former Shell oil boss agrees. In Houston, he told Newsnight: "Many neo conservatives are people who have certain ideological beliefs about markets, about democracy, about this, that and the other. International oil companies, without exception, are very pragmatic commercial organizations. They don’t have a theology." A State Department spokesman told Newsnight they intended "to provide all possibilities to the Oil Ministry of Iraq and advocate none". Greg Palast’s film – the result of a joint investigation by Newsnight and Harper’s Magazine – will be broadcast on Thursday, 17 March, 2005.

Response:

> I know that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing my president LIED to > us again and again…in fact, he still has not come clean about the *real* > reason for the war.

The "Lie" about WMD`s has been debunked Ssoooooooooo many times. It`s sad seeing small minds trapped in their circle logic. > (P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own > words.  I’m out of here….)

Promises, promises. 1) For anyone that might be unaware, there are contengentcy plans at the Pentagon to attack virtually every nation on earth, and those are continually being updated. 2) If we were the puppet masters of the new government in Iraq, the results would have been much different. The Iraqi`s have spoken, and they, like us, will end up with the government of their choice. See ya, John

Response:

Osama bin Pritchard posted the latest foilhat-kook Haliburton/Carlysle/Skull and Bones whackjob .edu horse-shit conspiracy theory and then made a promise he will not keep: >(P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own >words.  I’m out of here….)

There, there.  There, there.  It’ll be all right, really it will. Here’s the crux of the matter, son.  I’m sure you’ll understand, being all educated an’ everything… Wizard of Oz: Back where I come from, we have universities, seats of great learning, where men go to become great thinkers. And when they come out, they think deep thoughts and with no more brains than you have. But they have one thing you haven’t got: a diploma. Therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Universitartus Committiartum E Pluribus Unum, I hereby confer upon you the honorary degree of ThD. Scarecrow: ThD? Wizard of Oz: That’s… Doctor of Thinkology. I reckon that pretty much nails it. Lord Valve American "Some have brains, and some haven’t," Pooh says, "and there it is."

Response:

>> I know that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing my president LIED to > us again and again…in fact, he still has not come clean about the *real* > reason for the war. >The "Lie" about WMD`s has been debunked Ssoooooooooo many times. It`s sad >seeing small minds trapped in their circle logic.

Are you saying the American people would have supported the invasion of Iraq without the WMD rationale presented by Dumber’nyuh and minions, or are you rerunning the "honest mistake" excuse?   Either way, you’re screwed and rightly so. > (P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own > words.  I’m out of here….) >Promises, promises. >1) For anyone that might be unaware, there are contengentcy plans at the >Pentagon to attack virtually every nation on earth, and those are >continually being updated.

What a comforting thought — so many ways to screw things up already on the shelf… >2) If we were the puppet masters of the new government in Iraq, the results >would have been much different.

The election results were manipulated — the Sistani faction would have had a solid majority if not for counting irregularities by the Allawi/U.S.-dominated Election Commission, which forced the Shiites to deal with the Kurds.  Stay tuned by all means! >The Iraqi`s have spoken, and they, like us, >will end up with the government of their choice.

Do you really believe that this administration would allow Iraq to have a Sh’aria-based constitution establishing a de-facto Islamic republic closely aligned with Shiite Iran to the east and a Shiite faction in Lebanon, Syria, and the Palestinian areas to the west, the folks known as "Hezbollah?"        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

It was interesting when it came out that Bush`s SAT`s were HIGHER than Kerry`s. He qualified for Fighter Aircraft. The testing for that requires VERY bright people and most do NOT qualify, and no matter what connections you have, you don`t get into Fighters unless you qualify. > "honest mistake" excuse? > Either way, you’re screwed > and rightly so.

1) It was only the belief of Russian, Italian, Jordanian, Egyptian, Israeli, British, and American Intel at that time, and more, and more stories are coming out by those that believe that WMD`s were there, and they were moved to Lebanon thru Syria. >1) For anyone that might be unaware, there are contengentcy plans at the >Pentagon to attack virtually every nation on earth, and those are >continually being updated. > What a comforting thought — > so many ways to screw things > up already on the shelf…

Whn the Pentagon plans the Left screams, but if the Military is caught with it`s pants down, the Left still screams. Either you want us to be prepared, or you want us to be victimized. Make up your mind… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->2) If we were the puppet masters of the new government in Iraq, the >results >would have been much different. > The election results were > manipulated — the Sistani > faction would have had a > solid majority if not for > counting irregularities by > the Allawi/U.S.-dominated > Election Commission, which > forced the Shiites to deal > with the Kurds.  Stay > tuned by all means!

I will.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The Iraqi`s have spoken, and they, like us, >will end up with the government of their choice. > Do you really believe that > this administration would > allow Iraq to have a > Sh’aria-based constitution > establishing a de-facto > Islamic republic closely > aligned with Shiite Iran > to the east and a Shiite > faction in Lebanon, Syria, > and the Palestinian areas > to the west, the folks > known as "Hezbollah?"

Sistani`s already come out AGAINST turning Iraq into a Islamic Republic, but only time will tell… See ya, John

Response:

> (P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own > words.  I’m out of here….)

good riddance! paul arizona

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > It was interesting when it came out that Bush`s SAT`s were HIGHER than > Kerry`s. He qualified for Fighter Aircraft. The testing for that requires > VERY bright people and most do NOT qualify, and no matter what connections > you have, you don`t get into Fighters unless you qualify. > "honest mistake" excuse? > Either way, you’re screwed > and rightly so. > 1) It was only the belief of Russian, Italian, Jordanian, Egyptian, > Israeli, British, and American Intel at that time, and more, and more > stories are coming out by those that believe that WMD`s were there, and > they were moved to Lebanon thru Syria.

uh… it was also the very publicly stated belief of france and germany and italy and britain and virtually every other country in the world (with the exception of course of syria who is now holding those WMD’s) that there were WMD’s. i think i remember at the time, some of the liberals in this NG that were constantly announcing the impending doom of the american military at the hands of saddam’s WMD’s. lol, paul arizona

Response:

>Osama bin Pritchard posted the latest foilhat-kook >Haliburton/Carlysle/Skull and Bones whackjob >.edu horse-shit conspiracy theory and then made >a promise he will not keep: >(P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless >you want to see your own words.  I’m out of here….)

You should be able to relate to that: >Newsgroups: alt.guitar.amps >For the last time -> >YOU LOST!  GET OVER IT! >LV

Newsgroups: alt.guitar.amps YOU LOST.  Get over it. You’ll continue to lose, too. Because that’s what losers do. Suffer. Lord Valve American The Repair Guy http://repairguy1993.netfirms.com/

Response:

> 2) If we were the puppet masters of the new government in Iraq, the results > would have been much different. The Iraqi`s have spoken, and they, like us, > will end up with the government of their choice. > See ya, > John

Hi, Puppet master? Going back to history, S. Korea(S.M. Rhee), S. Vietnam(G. D. Diem), What happened in Chile? What happened in Nicaragua? Now what’s happening in Iraq and Afghanistan? Is your thinking brain working in good order? Hope majority Americans are not like you. Tony

Response:

> I know that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing my president LIED to > us again and again…in fact, he still has not come clean about the *real* > reason for the war. > The "Lie" about WMD`s has been debunked Ssoooooooooo many times. It`s sad > seeing small minds trapped in their circle logic.

Making unfounded assertions again, John?  Well, you can rest assured that I will call you on it.  Support your claim or get another ear-boxing. What about those Bush lies?  Found any time to address that thread again? __ Steve .

Response:

> It was interesting when it came out that Bush`s SAT`s were HIGHER than > Kerry`s. He qualified for Fighter Aircraft. The testing for that requires > VERY bright people and most do NOT qualify, and no matter what connections > you have, you don`t get into Fighters unless you qualify.

So what?  He’s been known to LIE, so why couldn’t he CHEAT? Let’s look at what you so glibly deleted: > Are you saying the American > people would have supported > the invasion of Iraq without > the WMD rationale presented > by Dumber’nyuh and minions, > or are you rerunning the > "honest mistake" excuse? > Either way, you’re screwed > and rightly so.

You really should address this one, John… I think it’s important. __ Steve .

Response:

All true, plus the price of gasoline is at an all time – thanks George you fucknig idiot.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here it is folks…..this is why our sons and daughters are dying in a > far off land.  Quite simply, so that we can have access to a fuel that > will very likely run out in their own lifetimes, and maybe some of ours. > I know that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing my president LIED > to us again and again…in fact, he still has not come clean about the > *real* reason for the war. > Gee….what do you think would happen, if we spent the combined > resources of the war, on perfecting an alternate and renewable fuel, > instead of spilling blood over the last few drops of oil?  Hmmmmm???? > And then, when the oil does run out, we’ve perfected the new technology, > so we sell it to the world. > Golly…..that’s pretty liberal thinking, eh? > You idiots have no idea what is going on.  Most of you never will, either. > I pity you. > (P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own > words.  I’m out of here….) > Secret US plans for Iraq’s oil > The Bush administration made plans for war and for Iraq’s oil before the > 9/11 attacks, sparking a policy battle between neo-cons and Big Oil, > BBC’s Newsnight has revealed. > Two years ago today – when President George Bush announced US, British > and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad – protesters claimed the > US had a secret plan for Iraq’s oil once Saddam had been conquered. > In fact there were two conflicting plans, setting off a hidden policy > war between neo-conservatives at the Pentagon, on one side, versus a > combination of "Big Oil" executives and US State Department "pragmatists". > "Big Oil" appears to have won. The latest plan, obtained by Newsnight > from the US State Department was, we learned, drafted with the help of > American oil industry consultants. > Insiders told Newsnight that planning began "within weeks" of Bush’s > first taking office in 2001, long before the September 11th attack on > the US. > An Iraqi-born oil industry consultant, Falah Aljibury, says he took part > in the secret meetings in California, Washington and the Middle East. He > described a State Department plan for a forced coup d’etat. > Mr Aljibury himself told Newsnight that he interviewed potential > successors to Saddam Hussein on behalf of the Bush administration. > Secret sell-off plan > The industry-favoured plan was pushed aside by a secret plan, drafted > just before the invasion in 2003, which called for the sell-off of all > of Iraq’s oil fields. The new plan was crafted by neo-conservatives > intent on using Iraq’s oil to destroy the Opec cartel through massive > increases in production above Opec quotas. > The sell-off was given the green light in a secret meeting in London > headed by Ahmed Chalabi shortly after the US entered Baghdad, according > to Robert Ebel. > Mr Ebel, a former Energy and CIA oil analyst, now a fellow at the Center > for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, told Newsnight he > flew to the London meeting at the request of the State Department. > Mr Aljibury, once Ronald Reagan’s "back-channel" to Saddam, claims that > plans to sell off Iraq’s oil, pushed by the US-installed Governing > Council in 2003, helped instigate the insurgency and attacks on US and > British occupying forces. > "Insurgents used this, saying, ‘Look, you’re losing your country, you’re > losing your resources to a bunch of wealthy billionaires who want to > take you over and make your life miserable,’" said Mr Aljibury from his > home near San Francisco. > "We saw an increase in the bombing of oil facilities, pipelines, built > on the premise that privatisation is coming." > Privatisation blocked by industry > Philip Carroll, the former CEO of Shell Oil USA who took control of > Iraq’s oil production for the US Government a month after the invasion, > stalled the sell-off scheme. > Mr Carroll told us he made it clear to Paul Bremer, the US occupation > chief who arrived in Iraq in May 2003, that: "There was to be no > privatisation of Iraqi oil resources or facilities while I was involved." > Ariel Cohen, of the neo-conservative Heritage Foundation, told Newsnight > that an opportunity had been missed to privatise Iraq’s oil fields. > He advocated the plan as a means to help the US defeat Opec, and said > America should have gone ahead with what he called a "no-brainer" decision. > Mr Carroll hit back, telling Newsnight, "I would agree with that > statement. To privatize would be a no-brainer. It would only be thought > about by someone with no brain." > New plans, obtained from the State Department by Newsnight and Harper’s > Magazine under the US Freedom of Information Act, called for creation of > a state-owned oil company favoured by the US oil industry. It was > completed in January 2004 under the guidance of Amy Jaffe of the James > Baker Institute in Texas. > Formerly US Secretary of State, Baker is now an attorney representing > Exxon-Mobil and the Saudi Arabian government. > View segments of Iraq oil plans at www.GregPalast.com > <http://www.gregpalast.com/opeconthemarch.html> > Questioned by Newsnight, Ms Jaffe said the oil industry prefers state > control of Iraq’s oil over a sell-off because it fears a repeat of > Russia’s energy privatisation. In the wake of the collapse of the Soviet > Union, US oil companies were barred from bidding for the reserves. > Ms Jaffe says US oil companies are not warm to any plan that would > undermine Opec and the current high oil price: "I’m not sure that if I’m > the chair of an American company, and you put me on a lie detector test, > I would say high oil prices are bad for me or my company." > The former Shell oil boss agrees. In Houston, he told Newsnight: "Many > neo conservatives are people who have certain ideological beliefs about > markets, about democracy, about this, that and the other. International > oil companies, without exception, are very pragmatic commercial > organizations. They don’t have a theology." > A State Department spokesman told Newsnight they intended "to provide > all possibilities to the Oil Ministry of Iraq and advocate none". > Greg Palast’s film – the result of a joint investigation by Newsnight > and Harper’s Magazine – will be broadcast on Thursday, 17 March, 2005.

Response:

> He (Bush) qualified for Fighter Aircraft.

The it’s a damn shame he was too much of a chicken to serve in combat, isn’t it? Who knows? If he’d had some balls be might have gotten more medals than John Kerry. But we’ll never know.

Response:

>It was interesting when it came out that Bush`s SAT`s were HIGHER than >Kerry`s. He qualified for Fighter Aircraft. The testing for that requires >VERY bright people and most do NOT qualify, and no matter what connections >you have, you don`t get into Fighters unless you qualify.

He *barely* qualified — and I’ve known enough marginally intelligent military pilots not to be impressed by someone of Dumber’nyuh’s mediocre calibre.  More to the point, he got his Air Guard posting and his pricey, taxpayer-funded, wasted F-102 training by being bumped ahead of more qualified applicants.   Kerry, whatever his flaws, played by the rules and even requested hazardous duty. > "honest mistake" excuse? > Either way, you’re screwed > and rightly so. >1) It was only the belief of Russian, Italian, Jordanian, Egyptian, Israeli, >British, and American Intel at that time, and more, and more stories are >coming out by those that believe that WMD`s were there, and they were moved >to Lebanon thru Syria.

No it wasn’t — it was a widely held *suspicion* of *some* intell people in all those countries.  Only Dumber’nyuh and Toady Blair hyped up that very dubious suspicion into an imminent threat worthy of large-scale military intervention. >>1) For anyone that might be unaware, there are contengentcy plans at the >>Pentagon to attack virtually every nation on earth, and those are >>continually being updated. > What a comforting thought — > so many ways to screw things > up already on the shelf… >Whn the Pentagon plans the Left screams, but if the Military is caught with >it`s pants down, the Left still screams. Either you want us to be prepared, >or you want us to be victimized. Make up your mind…

If Iraq is an example of what’s on the shelf, there’s plenty to scream about — we’ve spent over 1,500 American lives and ruined many times that many to replace a toothless paper tiger of a hostile regime with a thinly veiled Shiite theocracy with close ties to people that are *far* more actively associated with terrorism than Saddam Hussein ever was.   One can only hope that the current ongoing and bloody failure of American "planning" isn’t typical! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>2) If we were the puppet masters of the new government in Iraq, the >>results >>would have been much different. > The election results were > manipulated — the Sistani > faction would have had a > solid majority if not for > counting irregularities by > the Allawi/U.S.-dominated > Election Commission, which > forced the Shiites to deal > with the Kurds.  Stay > tuned by all means! >I will.. >>The Iraqi`s have spoken, and they, like us, >>will end up with the government of their choice. > Do you really believe that > this administration would > allow Iraq to have a > Sh’aria-based constitution > establishing a de-facto > Islamic republic closely > aligned with Shiite Iran > to the east and a Shiite > faction in Lebanon, Syria, > and the Palestinian areas > to the west, the folks > known as "Hezbollah?" >Sistani`s already come out AGAINST turning Iraq into a Islamic Republic,   >but only time will tell…

Sistani is an astute operator — he won’t repeat Khomeini’s error of formally establishing the senior Shhite clergy as a government entity.  He’ll use the time-tested method employed by powerful clergymen in the west: the "power behind the throne" approach.  The Islamic Republic of Iraq will never be named as such, but it will enforce Sha’aria whenever practicable and it will have friendly relations with a defiantly nuclear Iraq and with an unrepentantly violent Hezbollah, and it will not be well disposed toward U.S. interests in the region.  Such is the price of arrogance, ineptitude, and cultural ignorance: American blood and treasure poured onto the ancient sands of Mesopotamia for no good reason and with no good result even remotely in sight. >See ya, >John

Right back atcha!        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

> He (Bush) qualified for Fighter Aircraft. > The it’s a damn shame he was too much of a chicken to serve in combat, > isn’t it? > Who knows? If he’d had some balls be might have gotten more medals than > John Kerry. But we’ll never know.

JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. you DON’T want to open THAT up again. paul arizona

Response:

> (P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own > words.  I’m out of here….)

Yeah, right, again.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> He (Bush) qualified for Fighter Aircraft. > The it’s a damn shame he was too much of a chicken to serve in combat, > isn’t it? > Who knows? If he’d had some balls be might have gotten more medals than > John Kerry. But we’ll never know. >JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. you DON’T want to >open THAT up again.

The U.S. Navy disagrees, after years of false accusations Kerry’s medals are still his.   End of story.        Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access              >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> He (Bush) qualified for Fighter Aircraft. > The it’s a damn shame he was too much of a chicken to serve in combat, > isn’t it? > Who knows? If he’d had some balls be might have gotten more medals than > John Kerry. But we’ll never know. > JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. you DON’T want to > open THAT up again.

More bald-faced assertions.  Lies, actually.  Here’s a quote, and a link: " But in terms of the legitimacy of the awards, the Navy is saying they were legitmately awarded and properly approved. " http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:vQvf8iZkj-wJ:qando.net/archives/… Put that in your pipe and choke on it… __ Steve .

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> He (Bush) qualified for Fighter Aircraft. > The it’s a damn shame he was too much of a chicken to serve in combat, > isn’t it? > Who knows? If he’d had some balls be might have gotten more medals than > John Kerry. But we’ll never know. > JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. you DON’T want to > open THAT up again. > paul > arizona

Of course he does, he has nothing else to discuss. Lunatics do the same things over and over hoping for a differnt result. Thus goeth the political equivalent of week old dung, the DemocRAT PArty!

Response:

The real reason for war is to make the rich, richer.  The poor kids from the ghetto, barrio, and hills get killed and maimed. Object to war!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here it is folks…..this is why our sons and daughters are dying in a > far off land.  Quite simply, so that we can have access to a fuel that > will very likely run out in their own lifetimes, and maybe some of ours. > I know that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy, knowing my president LIED > to us again and again…in fact, he still has not come clean about the > *real* reason for the war. > Gee….what do you think would happen, if we spent the combined > resources of the war, on perfecting an alternate and renewable fuel, > instead of spilling blood over the last few drops of oil?  Hmmmmm???? > And then, when the oil does run out, we’ve perfected the new technology, > so we sell it to the world. > Golly…..that’s pretty liberal thinking, eh? > You idiots have no idea what is going on.  Most of you never will, either. > I pity you. > (P.S.  Don’t waste your time responding, unless you want to see your own > words.  I’m out of here….) > Secret US plans for Iraq’s oil > The Bush administration made plans for war and for Iraq’s oil before the > 9/11 attacks, sparking a policy battle between neo-cons and Big Oil, > BBC’s Newsnight has revealed. > Two years ago today – when President George Bush announced US, British > and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad – protesters claimed the > US had a secret plan for Iraq’s oil once Saddam had been conquered. > In fact there were two conflicting plans, setting off a hidden policy > war between neo-conservatives at the Pentagon, on one side, versus a > combination of "Big Oil" executives and US State Department "pragmatists". > "Big Oil" appears to have won. The latest plan, obtained by Newsnight > from the US State Department was, we learned, drafted with the help of > American oil industry consultants. > Insiders told Newsnight that planning began "within weeks" of Bush’s > first taking office in 2001, long before the September 11th attack on > the US. > An Iraqi-born oil industry consultant, Falah Aljibury, says he took part > in the secret meetings in California, Washington and the Middle East. He > described a State Department plan for a forced coup d’etat. > Mr Aljibury himself told Newsnight that he interviewed potential > successors to Saddam Hussein on behalf of the Bush administration. > Secret sell-off plan > The industry-favoured plan was pushed aside by a secret plan, drafted > just before the invasion in 2003, which called for the sell-off of all > of Iraq’s oil fields. The new plan was crafted by neo-conservatives > intent on using Iraq’s oil to destroy the Opec cartel through massive > increases in production above Opec quotas. > The sell-off was given the green light in a secret meeting in London > headed by Ahmed Chalabi shortly after the US entered Baghdad, according > to Robert Ebel. > Mr Ebel, a former Energy and CIA oil analyst, now a fellow at the Center > for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, told Newsnight he > flew to the London meeting at the request of the State Department. > Mr Aljibury, once Ronald Reagan’s "back-channel" to Saddam, claims that > plans to sell off Iraq’s oil, pushed by the US-installed Governing > Council in 2003, helped instigate the insurgency and attacks on US and > British occupying forces. > "Insurgents used this, saying, ‘Look, you’re losing your country, you’re > losing your resources to a bunch of wealthy billionaires who want to > take you over and make your life miserable,’" said Mr Aljibury from his > home near San Francisco. > "We saw an increase in the bombing of oil facilities, pipelines, built > on the premise that privatisation is coming." > Privatisation blocked by industry > Philip Carroll, the former CEO of Shell Oil USA who took control of > Iraq’s oil production for the US Government a month after the invasion, > stalled the sell-off scheme. > Mr Carroll told us he made it clear to Paul Bremer, the US occupation > chief who arrived in Iraq in May 2003, that: "There was to be no > privatisation of Iraqi oil resources or facilities while I was involved." > Ariel Cohen, of the neo-conservative Heritage Foundation, told Newsnight > that an opportunity had been missed to privatise Iraq’s oil fields. > He advocated the plan as a means to help the US defeat Opec, and said > America should have gone ahead with what he called a "no-brainer" decision. > Mr Carroll hit back, telling Newsnight, "I would agree with that > statement. To privatize would be a no-brainer. It would only be thought > about by someone with no brain." > New plans, obtained from the State Department by Newsnight and Harper’s > Magazine under the US Freedom of Information Act, called for creation of > a state-owned oil company favoured by the US oil industry. It was > completed in January 2004 under the guidance of Amy Jaffe of the James > Baker Institute in Texas. > Formerly US Secretary of State, Baker is now an attorney representing > Exxon-Mobil and the Saudi Arabian government. > View segments of Iraq oil plans at www.GregPalast.com > <http://www.gregpalast.com/opeconthemarch.html> > Questioned by Newsnight, Ms Jaffe said the oil industry prefers state > control of Iraq’s oil over a sell-off because it fears a repeat of > Russia’s energy privatisation. In the wake of the collapse of the Soviet > Union, US oil companies were barred from bidding for the reserves. > Ms Jaffe says US oil companies are not warm to any plan that would > undermine Opec and the current high oil price: "I’m not sure that if I’m > the chair of an American company, and you put me on a lie detector test, > I would say high oil prices are bad for me or my company." > The former Shell oil boss agrees. In Houston, he told Newsnight: "Many > neo conservatives are people who have certain ideological beliefs about > markets, about democracy, about this, that and the other. International > oil companies, without exception, are very pragmatic commercial > organizations. They don’t have a theology." > A State Department spokesman told Newsnight they intended "to provide > all possibilities to the Oil Ministry of Iraq and advocate none". > Greg Palast’s film – the result of a joint investigation by Newsnight > and Harper’s Magazine – will be broadcast on Thursday, 17 March, 2005.

Response:

> JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals.

You are a lying fuck.

Response:

> JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. > You are a lying fuck.

heh heh. more evidence that truth pisses you guys off. the reason it hurts, is because you know that its true. he lied to get the medals, and he then backstabbed his fellow GI’s who HAD served honorably. and you guys cant stand it. its a good day. paul American!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> He (Bush) qualified for Fighter Aircraft. > > The it’s a damn shame he was too much of a chicken to serve in combat, > > isn’t it? > > Who knows? If he’d had some balls be might have gotten more medals than > > John Kerry. But we’ll never know. > JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. you DON’T want to > open THAT up again. > More bald-faced assertions.  Lies, actually.  Here’s a quote, and a link: > " But in terms of the legitimacy of the awards, the Navy is saying they > were > legitmately awarded and properly approved. " > http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:vQvf8iZkj-wJ:qando.net/archives/… > Put that in your pipe and choke on it… > __ > Steve

you are pretty hung up on links. i clicked on yours and read what was said. (there was nothing about whether he EARNED them, only that they and been AWARDED in a proper manner). now lets see if you can do the same for me. click on the link and watch the videos. amazing stuff, but then you wont do that, because you are a typical liberal coward who only wants to attack, and not include any aspect of debate. now go and prove me wrong. http://www.swiftvetsandpows.com/swiftvetsandpows/ if you DO watch the videos, i would love to hear your opinion of your great hero then. post it here. dont choke on that pipe of yours there, steve. paul az

Response:

do i know you? i dont think so. oh well, the navy has profferred NO opinion as to whether JOhn KErry earned those medals or whether he lied to get them, and you know it. http://www.swiftvetsandpows.com/swiftvetsandpows/ watch the video’s, then go crawl back under your rock. the American people have already ruled on this issue. paul az

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> He (Bush) qualified for Fighter Aircraft. >> The it’s a damn shame he was too much of a chicken to serve in combat, >> isn’t it? >> Who knows? If he’d had some balls be might have gotten more medals than >> John Kerry. But we’ll never know. >JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. you DON’T want to >open THAT up again. > The U.S. Navy disagrees, > after years of false > accusations Kerry’s > medals are still his. > End of story. >       Posted via TITANnews – Uncensored Newsgroups Access >             >>>> at http://www.TitanNews.com <<<< > -=Every Newsgroup – Anonymous, UNCENSORED, BROADBAND Downloads=-

Response:

> >> JOhn KErry lied cheated and worse to get those medals. > You are a lying fuck. > heh heh

Okay. You’re a laughing, lying fuck.

Response:

 ….call 702-262-9463    ….  

Response:

> ….call 702-262-9463    ….

Um, dude, when you’re selling windmills in one post, and supposedly the entire business in another, it might make your customers wonder about the warranty and service contract on the windmills . DJ

Response:

> Um, dude, when you’re selling windmills in one post, and supposedly > the entire business in another, it might make your customers wonder > about the warranty and service contract on the windmills .

I would think it’s more likely a bad attempt at harassing the true owner of the phone number. Why? It is a contentless post. There is nothing in it but the phone number. It was posted by someone using webtv. Any serious business would have it’s own accounts since an ISP is so very cheap and you would need a domain name anyhow. The post was spammed to dozens, perhaps hundreds, of newsgroups and some of them included offensive topics. There actually is a renewable energy company at that phone number. http://www.alternativeenergysystemsinc.com/ Though, I’ll admit that it must not be a very successful company as the website is incomplete and a couple of years out of date. Anthony

Response:

it’s webtv, what do you expect ….. and he’s trying to make folks think  it’s 4-8 cents / kWh …..

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ….call 702-262-9463    …. > Um, dude, when you’re selling windmills in one post, and supposedly > the entire business in another, it might make your customers wonder > about the warranty and service contract on the windmills . > DJ

Response:

The current physics model does not give room for a self sufficient over-unity device to exist. For example, if I told you about an idea for building a battery-like device that never ran out of power and that didn’t take energy from the sun or random RF noise (note that this doesn’t necessarily imply the creation of energy), the current physics model simply says that’s impossible. My question is this: How hard convinced are you that the current physics model has a 100% firm, factual base and that there is 0% possibility of   an over-unity device? Because, if there really is no way it could exist then people should stop wasting their time pushing science in that direction, right? Otherwise, if there is any possibility that today’s model has a flaw and really does permit the existence of an over-unity device, any possibility at all, we should pursue it, shouldn’t we?

Response:

I, for one, am as convinced as can be that the conservation laws (which negate the possibility of over-unity devices) are valid. They aren’t called laws idly, you know. They are laws because no observation or experiment has ever found an exception. Gordon Richmond

Response:

> The current physics model does not give room for a self sufficient > over-unity device to exist. For example, if I told you about an idea for > building a battery-like device that never ran out of power and that > didn’t take energy from the sun or random RF noise (note that this > doesn’t necessarily imply the creation of energy), the current physics > model simply says that’s impossible. > My question is this: How hard convinced are you that the current physics > model has a 100% firm, factual base and that there is 0% possibility of >  an over-unity device?

… People have been trying to disprove conservation of energy since they thought up the idea. Seems like a pretty solid law so far. Trying to get around it is probably pointless (though sometimes entertaining). This is one of those things where you can learn a lot from failing. This doesn’t mean that we should stop looking for unconventional energy sources. Fusion, for instance, is certainly not over-unity but it would be mighty useful. Superconductors aren’t an energy source but if we had versions that work at room temperature they would make things more efficient so less energy would be required. There is a lot of this kind of untapped potential out there. Anthony

Response:

> The current physics model does not give room for a self sufficient > over-unity device to exist. For example, if I told you about an idea for > building a battery-like device that never ran out of power and that > didn’t take energy from the sun or random RF noise (note that this > doesn’t necessarily imply the creation of energy), the current physics > model simply says that’s impossible. > My question is this: How hard convinced are you that the current physics > model has a 100% firm, factual base and that there is 0% possibility of >   an over-unity device?

Not under current physical laws. But it’s possible to change physical laws. Many people beliving in free energy have a messed up memory of their past in other high tech civilizations. Their messe up memory creates the imagination, that it is easy to have it. In reality, it’s as easy as to built up a notebook 500 years ago. No problem in 500 years continouse technical development, but now complete impossible. — Roland M

greetings all, I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. this is not for a current use, just ideas for the future. (when I buy a house I’ll be building a small machine shop, and will need to "lectric it up") Is a motor that big just too much for a sensibly sized RE system, by which I mean most likely grid tied PV, not hydro, small enough to install on a single family home in the city. (Portland, OR)? I know there are tons of variables, I just hope for a fairly simple "yeah you can do that for not too much $", or "yeah, but it’ll be real expensive" or even "nope, cant do that, not ever, not no how" Thanks, gene

Response:

>greetings all, >I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is >feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor.

gene, What is an RE system? Regards, John Phillips

Response:

>>I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is >feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. > What is an RE system?

RE = Renewable Energy. The three main limits to an RE system are 1) maximum instantaneous power required, 2) maximum kilowatt-hours required per day (week,year,etc), 3) financial resources. The first two are certainly available but not exactly cheap. The last is strictly up to you. I believe most folks who run shops out in the woods wind up using a diesel generator when they want to work the big tools and the wind, pv, hydro is reserved for everything else. If you use biodiesel you can at least give a nod to making it renewable. Anthony

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is >>feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. > What is an RE system? > RE = Renewable Energy. > The three main limits to an RE system are 1) maximum instantaneous power > required, 2) maximum kilowatt-hours required per day (week,year,etc), > 3) financial resources. > The first two are certainly available but not exactly cheap. The last > is strictly up to you. I believe most folks who run shops out in the > woods wind up using a diesel generator when they want to work the big > tools and the wind, pv, hydro is reserved for everything else. If you > use biodiesel you can at least give a nod to making it renewable. > Anthony

Thanks. I guess the question really is whether the inverters on the market are able to produce 3 phase, or, if not, if a phase converter is a type of load that would give an inverter fits. I know that those big motors draw a lot of current on start up, hence the 240 or 480V. The time the motor would actually be running is probably less than 2 or 3 hours/day, but it will be started and stopped probably 100-300 times in 6-8 hours. I assume the easiest way to provide such large peak surge currents would be to use a grid tied system, and just hope to offset my usage with it; but it costs a ton to have 3 phase brought in by the utility, so I hoped an inverter would be able to produce the 3ph without using a converter (which is just a motor connected to a generator, pretty inefficient.) Are big motors like electric heating, in that theyre something that’s just not practical in an RE situation? Gene

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >greetings all, >I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is >feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. >this is not for a current use, just ideas for the future. (when I buy a >house I’ll be building a small machine shop, and will need to "lectric it >up") >Is a motor that big just too much for a sensibly sized RE system, by which I >mean most likely grid tied PV, not hydro, small enough to install on a >single family home in the city. (Portland, OR)? >I know there are tons of variables, I just hope for a fairly simple "yeah >you can do that for not too much $", or "yeah, but it’ll be real expensive" >or even "nope, cant do that, not ever, not no how" >Thanks, >gene

Do a google search of the rec.crafts.metalworking group for "variable frequency drive" or VFD. These units can take in single phase, and output three phase. (input and output voltage will be the same) VFDs are used all the time in home shops to run three phase motors. A 7.5 hp unit would probably cost about $600.  Here’s a supplier I often see recommended http://web2.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/AC_Drives_-z-_M… A transformer might also be required. One of the advantages of using a VFD is that you can program it for slow start, lessening the startup surge. My guess is that a VFD would run off a pair of large Xantrex SWs. You’d want to get that answer directly from Xantrex though http://www.xantrex.com/index.asp  They might even have a better solution. The question must have come up before. FWIW, we run all our normal loads (some big ones), *and* the startup surge of a 4hp air compressor, at the same time at our off-grid place. If you need a guinea pig to find out about adding 3 phase shop motors, just ship me a 2 hp VFD… I’ll change out my table saw motor, test the combination, and send you a nice report. Wayne

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The three main limits to an RE system are 1) maximum instantaneous power > required, 2) maximum kilowatt-hours required per day (week,year,etc), > 3) financial resources. > The first two are certainly available but not exactly cheap. The last > is strictly up to you. I believe most folks who run shops out in the > woods wind up using a diesel generator when they want to work the big > tools and the wind, pv, hydro is reserved for everything else. If you > use biodiesel you can at least give a nod to making it renewable. > Anthony >Thanks. I guess the question really is whether the inverters on the market >are able to produce 3 phase, or, if not, if a phase converter is a type of >load that would give an inverter fits. >I know that those big motors draw a lot of current on start up, hence the >240 or 480V. >The time the motor would actually be running is probably less than 2 or 3 >hours/day, but it will be started and stopped probably 100-300 times in 6-8 >hours. >I assume the easiest way to provide such large peak surge currents would be >to use a grid tied system, and just hope to offset my usage with it; but it >costs a ton to have 3 phase brought in by the utility, so I hoped an >inverter would be able to produce the 3ph without using a converter (which >is just a motor connected to a generator, pretty inefficient.) >Are big motors like electric heating, in that theyre something that’s just >not practical in an RE situation?

Probably the most economical solution is to replace the three phase motor with a single phase motor. From an efficiency standpoint, the use of an mg set would be better than using a three phase inverter in a grid tied situation. The mg set would be a 240 volt single phase motor driving a 480 volt three phase generator. The starting currents on motors approach 10 times full load current. Regards, John Phillips

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->greetings all, >I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is >feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. >this is not for a current use, just ideas for the future. (when I buy a >house I’ll be building a small machine shop, and will need to "lectric it >up") >Is a motor that big just too much for a sensibly sized RE system, by which I >mean most likely grid tied PV, not hydro, small enough to install on a >single family home in the city. (Portland, OR)? >I know there are tons of variables, I just hope for a fairly simple "yeah >you can do that for not too much $", or "yeah, but it’ll be real expensive" >or even "nope, cant do that, not ever, not no how" >Thanks, >gene > Do a google search of the rec.crafts.metalworking group for "variable > frequency drive" or VFD. These units can take in single phase, and > output three phase. (input and output voltage will be the same) VFDs > are used all the time in home shops to run three phase motors. A 7.5 > hp unit would probably cost about $600.  Here’s a supplier I often see > recommended > http://web2.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/AC_Drives_-z-_M… > A transformer might also be required. One of the advantages of using a > VFD is that you can program it for slow start, lessening the startup > surge. > My guess is that a VFD would run off a pair of large Xantrex SWs. > You’d want to get that answer directly from Xantrex though > http://www.xantrex.com/index.asp  They might even have a better > solution. The question must have come up before. > FWIW, we run all our normal loads (some big ones), *and* the startup > surge of a 4hp air compressor, at the same time at our off-grid place. > If you need a guinea pig to find out about adding 3 phase shop motors, > just ship me a 2 hp VFD… I’ll change out my table saw motor, test > the combination, and send you a nice report. > Wayne

Wayne, I’ve seen you over at R.C.M., right? Thanks for the info. It’s relieving to hear that someone *is* running big motors off grid already. The VFD is in the mail, you should have it on monday. Gene

Response:

Talk to Rainbow Power Company in Australia. They sell 3 phase back to the grid. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> greetings all, > I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is > feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. > this is not for a current use, just ideas for the future. (when I buy a > house I’ll be building a small machine shop, and will need to "lectric it > up") > Is a motor that big just too much for a sensibly sized RE system, by which I > mean most likely grid tied PV, not hydro, small enough to install on a > single family home in the city. (Portland, OR)? > I know there are tons of variables, I just hope for a fairly simple "yeah > you can do that for not too much $", or "yeah, but it’ll be real expensive" > or even "nope, cant do that, not ever, not no how" > Thanks, > gene

Response:

>I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is >feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor.

IIRC you can hook up 3 (or 6, or 9) Outback inverters and get 3 phase. But the VFD is probably easier and gives you speed control, too. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

Response:

>Wayne, >I’ve seen you over at R.C.M., right?

Yup. >Thanks for the info. It’s relieving to hear that someone *is* running big >motors off grid already.

Big loads (within reason) aren’t difficult, especially if they’re only on for short periods. It’s all the little sneaky ones, like the idle load of big inverters that you have to watch out for. >The VFD is in the mail, you should have it on monday.

When we first moved off-grid, we rented an extra large PO box to handle all the tool catalogues. Suppliers have cut back on paper in favor of Internet though, so that big box has been wasted the last few years…. until now.  ;-) Wayne

Response:

You might try a CEDARBURG Rotary converter.  It passes the 240v legs through to the motor and creates the third leg.  I just installed a 3HP model at work and it runs great.  The unit is fused with 15A fuses.  This one has a spinning armature coil but they have smaller ones with just stationary coils & caps. 3HP model costs about $700

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> greetings all, > I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is > feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. > this is not for a current use, just ideas for the future. (when I buy a > house I’ll be building a small machine shop, and will need to "lectric it > up") > Is a motor that big just too much for a sensibly sized RE system, by which I > mean most likely grid tied PV, not hydro, small enough to install on a > single family home in the city. (Portland, OR)? > I know there are tons of variables, I just hope for a fairly simple "yeah > you can do that for not too much $", or "yeah, but it’ll be real expensive" > or even "nope, cant do that, not ever, not no how" > Thanks, > gene

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 100,000 Newsgroups – 19 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Your best bet is to get a diesel generator for running such a large electrical load. No RE system I am aware of is even remotely economical in comparison.  Nor is it as reliable (what do you do on a cloudy day when you want to run your machine?).

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> greetings all, > I wondered if producing 3 phase (240 or 480V) power with a RE system is > feasible or even possible. I would have to run at most a 7.5 HP motor. > this is not for a current use, just ideas for the future. (when I buy a > house I’ll be building a small machine shop, and will need to "lectric it > up") > Is a motor that big just too much for a sensibly sized RE system, by which I > mean most likely grid tied PV, not hydro, small enough to install on a > single family home in the city. (Portland, OR)? > I know there are tons of variables, I just hope for a fairly simple "yeah > you can do that for not too much $", or "yeah, but it’ll be real expensive" > or even "nope, cant do that, not ever, not no how" > Thanks, > gene

Response:

> >However, there seem to be a lot of manipulative press releases in this area, >exceeded only by the flurry of claims for cold fusion. > Speaking of which, we’re overdue for a "breakthrough in solar cell > technology", aren’t we?  It’s been nearly a month…  8*)

There you go: "Kyocera Announces World’s Most Efficient (15.7%) Solar Modules in Commercial Production" http://www.japancorp.net/Article.asp?Art_ID=8033

Response:

>However, there seem to be a lot of manipulative press releases in this area, >exceeded only by the flurry of claims for cold fusion.

Speaking of which, we’re overdue for a "breakthrough in solar cell technology", aren’t we?  It’s been nearly a month…  8*) — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

>However, there seem to be a lot of manipulative press releases in this area, >exceeded only by the flurry of claims for cold fusion. > Speaking of which, we’re overdue for a "breakthrough in solar cell > technology", aren’t we?  It’s been nearly a month…  8*)

What happened to the research in organic semiconductors? Ray

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > 2004/07/22: Eureka: ‘Cool’ fuel cells could revolutionize Earth’s > energy resources > > HOUSTON, July 22, 2004 – As temperatures soar this summer, so do > electric bills. Researchers at the > > University of Houston are striving toward decreasing those costs > with the next revolution in power > > generation. > > Imagine a power source so small, yet so efficient, that it could > make cumbersome power plants > > virtually obsolete while lowering your electric bill. A breakthrough > in thin film solid oxide fuel > > cells (SOFCs) is currently being refined in labs at the University > of Houston, making that dream a > > reality. > > [...] > > Compared to the macroscopic size of traditional fuel cells that can > take up an entire room, thin > > film SOFCs are one micron thick – the equivalent of about > one-hundredth of a human hair. Putting > > this into perspective, the size equivalent of four sugar cubes would > produce 80 watts – more than > > enough to operate a laptop computer, eliminating clunky batteries > and giving you hours more juice > > in your laptop. By the same token, approximately two cans’ worth of > soda would produce more than > > five kilowatts, enough to power a typical household. > > Keeping in mind that one thin film SOFC is just a fraction of the > size of a human hair with an > > output of 0.8 to 0.9 Volts, a stack of 100 to 120 of these fuel > cells would generate about 100 > > volts. When connected to a homeowner’s natural gas line, the stack > would provide the needed > > electrical energy to run the household at an efficiency of > approximately 65 percent. This would be > > a twofold increase over power plants today, as they operate at 30 to > 35 percent efficiency. > > [...] > > <http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-07/uoh-fc072204.php> > > <regards> > > -het > crap > Hmmm… > I have been wondering about this fuel cell.  I have seen lots of > promises made about various technologies, some of which come to pass, > and some of which end up going into the trash bin. > In my research, I’m going to note that John says "crap". > John, while researching the above claims (to which you answered ‘crap’), > have you found any info that might prove useful?  Specifically, I want > to know if there are any prototypes being tested, and if anyone has > estimated the date of availability. > Ray Drouillard

I think the article implies there is no actual device. As such, it seems to fall into the category of manipulative press releases. That said, I certainly do not rule out that this line of research will be productive. However, there seem to be a lot of manipulative press releases in this area, exceeded only by the flurry of claims for cold fusion.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > 2004/07/22: Eureka: ‘Cool’ fuel cells could revolutionize Earth’s > energy resources > > > HOUSTON, July 22, 2004 – As temperatures soar this summer, so do > electric bills. Researchers at the > > > University of Houston are striving toward decreasing those costs > with the next revolution in power > > > generation. > > > Imagine a power source so small, yet so efficient, that it could > make cumbersome power plants > > > virtually obsolete while lowering your electric bill. A breakthrough > in thin film solid oxide fuel > > > cells (SOFCs) is currently being refined in labs at the University > of Houston, making that dream a > > > reality. > > > [...] > > > Compared to the macroscopic size of traditional fuel cells that can > take up an entire room, thin > > > film SOFCs are one micron thick – the equivalent of about > one-hundredth of a human hair. Putting > > > this into perspective, the size equivalent of four sugar cubes would > produce 80 watts – more than > > > enough to operate a laptop computer, eliminating clunky batteries > and giving you hours more juice > > > in your laptop. By the same token, approximately two cans’ worth of > soda would produce more than > > > five kilowatts, enough to power a typical household. > > > Keeping in mind that one thin film SOFC is just a fraction of the > size of a human hair with an > > > output of 0.8 to 0.9 Volts, a stack of 100 to 120 of these fuel > cells would generate about 100 > > > volts. When connected to a homeowner’s natural gas line, the stack > would provide the needed > > > electrical energy to run the household at an efficiency of > approximately 65 percent. This would be > > > a twofold increase over power plants today, as they operate at 30 to > 35 percent efficiency. > > > [...]

<http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-07/uoh-fc072204.php> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > <regards> > > > -het > > crap > Hmmm… > I have been wondering about this fuel cell.  I have seen lots of > promises made about various technologies, some of which come to pass, > and some of which end up going into the trash bin. > In my research, I’m going to note that John says "crap". > John, while researching the above claims (to which you answered ‘crap’), > have you found any info that might prove useful?  Specifically, I want > to know if there are any prototypes being tested, and if anyone has > estimated the date of availability. > Ray Drouillard > I think the article implies there is no actual device. > As such, it seems to fall into the category of manipulative press releases. > That said, I certainly do not rule out that this line of research will be > productive. > However, there seem to be a lot of manipulative press releases in this area, > exceeded only by the flurry of claims for cold fusion.

Thank you.  I was wondering if that was the case. Ray

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > 2004/07/22: Eureka: ‘Cool’ fuel cells could revolutionize Earth’s energy resources > HOUSTON, July 22, 2004

one of the best efficiency products available www.burnless.com www.signup.burnless.com

Response:

SCAM!!!!! — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> one of the best efficiency products available > www.burnless.com > www.signup.burnless.com

Response:

why do you say scam ?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> SCAM!!!!! > — > Steve Spence > Renewable energy and sustainable living > http://www.green-trust.org > Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel > powered diesels at > http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/ > one of the best efficiency products available > www.burnless.com > www.signup.burnless.com

Response:

SCAM: "Purposely distorting the truth in order to get someone else to part with something of value. Scams can be small or large operations involving few or many people. " — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> why do you say scam ? > SCAM!!!!! > — > Steve Spence > Renewable energy and sustainable living > http://www.green-trust.org > Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel > powered diesels at > http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/ > > one of the best efficiency products available > > www.burnless.com > > www.signup.burnless.com

Response:

> why do you say scam ?

     Well, your site won’t load on my machine, but every such device I have seen so far in my lifetime has been worthless crap, usually sold with a hearty helping of junk science.  And even if it were not a scam, it is certainly spam and I don’t buy from spammers, and I don’t know why anybody would. Vaughn

Response:

I looked at the site, it’s both Spam and Scam, and it’s not even canned. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> why do you say scam ? >      Well, your site won’t load on my machine, but every such device I have seen > so far in my lifetime has been worthless crap, usually sold with a hearty > helping of junk science.  And even if it were not a scam, it is certainly spam > and I don’t buy from spammers, and I don’t know why anybody would. > Vaughn

Response:

What’s a cheap source of a runtime meter. Is it typically a counter run by a 120V synchronous motor that plugs into the output circuit?

Response:

> What’s a cheap source of a runtime meter. > Is it typically a counter run by a 120V synchronous motor that plugs into > the output circuit?

I found a 12 volt runtime meter at a local auto/marine parts store and wired it through a 120V AC relay from Radio Shack.  Total cost was less than $30.

Response:

> What’s a cheap source of a runtime meter.

I bought a 12 VDC digital version with its own internal crystal for $5 at the Perkiomenville flea market. Digilog sells something like this for $20, pn 267-1027-ND. >Is it typically a counter run by a 120V synchronous >motor that plugs into the output circuit?

…with counters that look like auto odometers. More like $1 at flea markets. H&R (800) 848-8110 sells ‘em for $9.95 as pn TM93MET2549. Nick

Response:

I saw one at the sears hardware store yesterday.  I think it was $20-25.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What’s a cheap source of a runtime meter. > I bought a 12 VDC digital version with its own internal > crystal for $5 at the Perkiomenville flea market. Digilog > sells something like this for $20, pn 267-1027-ND. >Is it typically a counter run by a 120V synchronous >motor that plugs into the output circuit? > …with counters that look like auto odometers. More like > $1 at flea markets. H&R (800) 848-8110 sells ‘em for > $9.95 as pn TM93MET2549. > Nick

Response:

> What’s a cheap source of a runtime meter. > Is it typically a counter run by a 120V synchronous motor that plugs into > the output circuit?

Northern tool has one that goes on  a 4 cycle engine.

Response:

>What’s a cheap source of a runtime meter.

http://www.mayberrys.com/yamaha/generators/accessories.htm (they had another brand that did everything (time, tach, maintenance notifications) when they carried Honda generators, but now it looks like they’ve gone over to Yamaha exclusively. >Is it typically a counter run by a 120V synchronous motor that plugs into >the output circuit?

That’s one way, the little boxes clamp over the spark lead and have their own clock and battery — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

I had a bunch of 120vac mechanical "odometer" style hour meters around at one time. got them years ago from a catalog called polypak or some such thing in a grab bag for $5. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->What’s a cheap source of a runtime meter. > http://www.mayberrys.com/yamaha/generators/accessories.htm (they had > another brand that did everything (time, tach, maintenance > notifications) when they carried Honda generators, but now it looks > like they’ve gone over to Yamaha exclusively. >Is it typically a counter run by a 120V synchronous motor that plugs into >the output circuit? > That’s one way, the little boxes clamp over the spark lead and have > their own clock and battery > — > William Smith > ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc.    www.compusmiths.com

Response:

 BIG RED POWERHOUSE       . Big Red Generators specialises in new Cummins-powered 50Hz and 60Hz diesel and       . natural gas generating sets up to 2000KW and 2500KVA.       . Big Red combines the best in Cummins diesel and natural gas technology with industry       . standard alternators such as Newage Stamford or Marathon Electric.       . All new machines carry a guarantee of up to two years.       BIG RED PRE-OWNED GENSETS       . If you are interested in pre-owned, guaranteed, low hours or reconditioned generating       . sets from some of the world’s leading manufacturers such as CAT, Detroit Diesel,       . MTU, Perkins, Waukesha and Mitsubishi. we can offer you highly competitive prices.       . Each pre-owned machine, whether it’s for purchase, rent or lease, comes with a       . guarantee (depending on age and condition).       BIG RED KNOW-HOW       . Our team of industry experts, engineers, technicians and distributors is highly       . experienced in providing a comprehensive range of products and services.       . Whether you require a 5KW set for domestic use or a 100MW natural gas combined       . cycle G.E. turbine unit for a cement factory, Big Red Generators will get you the right       . product at the right price. BIG RED GENERATORS EUROPE 8-10 Glasgow Road Kirkintilloch G66 1SH United Kingdom Tel: +44 141 7762289 Fax: +44 845 2800167 Company no. SC264826 VAT no. 828388584 BIG RED GENERATORS AMERICAS Tel: +58 212 9770675 Fax: +58 212 9773642 Mob: +58 414 3342121 URL: www.bigredgenerators.com

Response:

and how do you spell SPAM? <<spam message snipped>>

Response:

At least it was the right flavor ….. — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Discuss vegetable oil and biodiesel powered diesels at http://www.veggievan.org/discuss/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> and how do you spell SPAM? > <<spam message snipped>>

Response:

I would like to buy a low-speed alternator (~60 rpm). I believe there is a company that manufactures wind turbines that makes them, but I don’t think they will sell the alternator alone. Is there a source where I can buy an alternator by itself?

Response:

What output voltage, frequency, current are you looking for? What is your application?    >Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable    >I would like to buy a low-speed alternator (~60 rpm).    >I believe there is a company that manufactures wind    >turbines that makes them, but I don’t think they will    >sell the alternator alone.    >Is there a source where I can buy an alternator by itself? Tom Willmon Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 – Registered

Response:

120 v. would be nice, but not necessary. 60 Hz would be nice, but not necessary since mechanical input will be variable, 1 to 5 kW.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What output voltage, frequency, current are you looking for? > What is your application? >    >Newsgroups: alt.energy.renewable >    >I would like to buy a low-speed alternator (~60 rpm). >    >I believe there is a company that manufactures wind >    >turbines that makes them, but I don’t think they will >    >sell the alternator alone. >    >Is there a source where I can buy an alternator by itself? > Tom Willmon > Mountainair, (mid) New Mexico, USA > Net-Tamer V 1.12.0 – Registered

Response:

Hello: 60Hz, 60rpm means 60 pairs of poles,